The "Nice Guys" archive

Comments - round 36
Comments - round 35
Comments - round 34
Comments - round 33
Comments - round 32
Comments - round 31
Comments - round 30
Comments - round 29
Comments - round 28
Comments - round 27
Comments - round 26
Comments - round 25
Comments - round 24
Comments - round 23
Comments - round 22
Comments - round 21
Comments - round 20
Comments - round 19
Comments - round 18
Comments - round 17
Comments - round 16
Comments - round 15
Comments - round 14
Comments - round 13
Comments - round 12
Comments - round 11
Comments - round 10
Comments - round 9
Comments - round 8
Comments - round 7
Comments - round 6
Comments - round 5
Comments - round 4
Comments - round 3
Comments - round 2
Comments - round 1.5
Comments - round 1
Nice Guys = BLEAH!
Nice Guys we can do without

And Still more comments from and about Nice Guys...

From: "siggen sigge" (
Subject: nice guys vs bad behaviour

Hello girls!

Iíve read some articles about what you would call the ínice guy syndromeí. It interests me, although I think a lot of your conclusions really stink. Now be warned, Iím Norwegian, meaning Iíll probably make a lot of spelling errors and soforthÖ But Iím sure, being as understanding and heartless as you are, youíll forgive me. (And I bet I write better English than any of you write Norwegian)

First of all you might wanna label me a nice guy. I donít know and I really donít care. The truth of the matter is I know what bad confidence is really all about. Whilst reading some of youíre articles I recognized some of myself in it. Especially on the part of not having a spine as you might call it, or dare to speak up for myself. Having this problem, of exaggerated politeness and modesty, you might get depressed. It does not make things like this a whole lot easier finding out that people donít respect you the way they should. If you donít get back at people, they tend to take advantage of this. I really donít know why itís such a big thing treating people thus, but I have no problem labelling this behaviour mischievous bullying.

What I find problematic about the way you are describing the matter, is that you are stigmatizing a group of men that has a certain characteristic behaviour. I.e.: nice guys. The part of the behaviour which is actually accessible to another person, I guess you are entitled to state as empiric facts. The problem starts when you claim to have accessibility to persons good or bad intentions, or actually to be able to read a persons mind. *They are so transparent etc.* Furthermore I donít see the character-flaws as you might call them, really as that bad at all. In the article Ďwhat is misogynyí there is this thing about men being objectifiers. What is wrong with objectifying women? Woman are being worshipped and placed in centre of menís sexual fantasies all the time. Nothing wrong with that I think, not as such. The real problem starts if you canít separate between sexual objectification, and the person behind the centrefold of youíre sexual fantasies. What it all boils down to is context. Although men might objectify women in a sexual sense, that does not imply that they have to dehumanize her or treat her like an object in other respects. The irony of it all is, women/girls also objectifies men. Girls for example often keep posters in their bedrooms of male actors or rockstars. Now isnít that idolizing, worshipping or objectifying? Or do you actually want to convince me that they do it Ďcause they are interested in the person behind the image? What is really the difference? And honestly, if someone turns you down or doesnít give you any attention, youíre bound to feel down. This is human. Although a good self-image is important, we are still dependent on other personís approval. What other people think about us affects us, because we are social creatures, and it hurts to be left out. To shut out someone, is actually hurting someone. In case you might think it differently.

Letís go to the issue of egoism now. This is my favourite subject. In the article Ďwhy nice guys are losersí you claim that nice guys have such bad self-confidence because they do things for others in order to be liked, and not simply for the pleasure of giving. I think that is a heap of crap. Not because it isnít true, although you donít know this, you just think you do. But because there is nothing morally wrong with it. We do things for others in order to be liked, or in order to boost our self-esteem and so on. So what? If this is the case, and I think it is in a considerable number of cases, it is certainly nothing that just defines Ďnice guysíô. This is normal human behaviour, and in my respect it is perfectly all-right when you consider the issue thus:

[Notice how so many "Nice Guys" feel it is their job to EDUCATE us?]

There are three basic ethical systems:
1. altruism; you should sacrifice yourself for the sake of others
2. anti-rational egoism and irrational egoism; you should sacrifice others
for the sake of yourself. 3. and last but not least; rational egoism, you should sacrifice neither
yourself nor others.

If you are well-behaved, it is quite rational to do it for the sake of yourself, and not of some sort of altruistic motif. You sacrifice no-one. It gets even worse if you tend to be altruistic, but all in all it is just a guise for anti-rational egoism. If you are well-behaved towards others, people are actually obliged to treat you likewise. If they donít, I perfectly understand why some men consider themselves victims. This is bad bad behaviour, and I want have any of it. And yes I do think that people are indebted to others in the sense of giving them mutual respect, and I donít give a flying-burger in what you might think or somehow can read into this behaviour, or between lines. Whether the person has bad confidence, or even if he is *shocking isnít it* a man. Whining, whimpering and embitter ness tend to be a result of, or a reaction to something. What I find stupid about this site is that you put all the blame on nice guys alone and use them as scapegoats when the issue is far more complex than that. People treat each other badly. Face it. Women treat man badly, face it. This maltreatment has its consequences, and the nice guy syndrome is one of them. Iím not saying that these guys are totally irresponsible for theyíre own misfortune, but there are two sides to every story. As far as Iím concerned, you are only seeing it from a womanís point of view.

[Heh. See the last comment in this comments section.]

I also find it highly ironic that political feminism has emphasized male empowerment and the discrimination against women all these years, and has generally put the blame on society. But all of a sudden, if a guy is hurting, the blame is altogether his own.

[Dude. Learn the difference between Blame and Responsibility. For you Nice Guy whiners, it's all about BLAME. You just don't GET IT.]

Where are the hierarchic structures that have misled women into misfortune now? It is hypocritical, and my articleís main objective has been to point that out.

By the way, you think irony gives you an advantage? Bullocks! Irony is a certain form of abusing power.

[Wah, wah, fuckin' wah. Grow a spine.]


Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Coleman (
Subject: Hi

I was looking at your website, and I like it. Especially the one about the "Nice Guy" syndrome. I have the double your e-book, and learned a lot, and I can learn a lot from your site too. I think a way of letting go is to take responsibility.What I'm getting from your site is about what turns women off and why.
Also, do you have a mailing list? Can you add me please? I also have a side project called, King Sexy. You can go to
I saw a newsletter called, "What women hate most about single guys". The song is called, "Ewww!!"

From: "CHAD GEMAR" (
Subject: Not what I expected
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:44:18 -0500

I came across your site through a series of links that started at MSN's homepage. The first page I hit on was the "Top Ten Ways to Fuck Up a Relationship." My ex-girlfriend pretty much did all ten of those to me. My best friends girlfriend is doing some of them to him now. I really got a kick out of it and sent it to him and my ex-girlfriend. The next area I went to was the shop. I saw the stuffed dog with a heart shaped hole, and I ordered the T-shirt that reads, "I'm not bitter."

At this point I thought the site was a woman bashing site. Sign up and go off about your own heartless bitch. As I read more I realized I was way off. Although I didn't know what I was looking at at first, I enjoy reading the majority of the things you all have to say. I have even gone so far as to sign up myself. Being single again and dating, a lot of the stuff I read there hit home for me. I may have been acting a little like the nice guys you talk about.

Anyway, great site. It's good to get a heartless bitches perspective on things.

From: "Lawrence Chu" (
Subject: Another "Nice Guy" comic link you might be interested in...
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:18:01 +0200

An artist known as either "EK" or "Big Big Truck" (depending on who you ask) has a couple of short comics dealing with the subject of "nice guys." At the bottom of the page are links to two of them, under "The Sensitive Guy Part 1" and "The Sensitive Guy Part 2"

BTW: The "Nice Guy" page is one of the best resources on this phenomenon I've ever seen (granted, I don't actively SEEK pages like this, but...). I was just linked to it today (through the Something Positive community) and have been going through it. It was startling to spot a lot of traits listed in the articles in myself, but at least I know I need to grow a spine, and it's not some fault on her side that nothing happens.

Mad propz, yo. :)

Lawrence Chu

From: "Steven Leeson" (
Subject: Nice Guys vs. Assholes: Why Gays and Chicks are in Love with Dicks
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:23:06 -0400

To Whoever Reads This E-mail:

After reading through the articles in the topic concerning so-called "Nice Guys," I thought that I would, like so many other readers, send an e-mail expressing my own opinions on the matter. And my opinion... is that the authors said everything pretty damn well. As a rather "geeky" male, I get to listen to many other "geeks" whine, bitch, moan, and groan about how girls are only interested in dating assholes. As a rather gay "geeky" male, I get to listen to it from the more, dare I say "feminine," viewpoint. I don't want a boy who's going to worship the ground I walk on. I don't want a boy who is going to leave everything to me, claiming that it is because he is "so in love." I don't want a boy so clingy and obsessive that he needs an ego boost after every breath. Self-assuredness is a turn-on. I'd rather have a man who knows that I'm into him, and also knows just what I'm looking for.

I think that the cause all really boils down to this: Many "Nice Guys" are under the impression that every relationship started is an attempt to settle down for life.

[Nice Guys aren't the only ones to suffer from this - I hear about women that do this all the time too. How the HELL can you tell by the second date that you want to get serious with someone, much less settle down with them?"]

Sometimes it's just fun to date somebody, to have a relationship with that person knowing that it isn't forever. Yes, when I date, I am looking for love. I'm always open to finding my soulmate. But I also like to go out and have fun with a guy for a few weeks without worrying about that. Yes, sad, clingy, little Jimmy may have an obvious crush on me; and yes he agrees with everything I say. But sexy, confident Johnny has the guts to ask me out; and that really makes all the difference. People are wrong: The size of a man's penis is unimportant. What matters is how big his balls are.


Steven Leeson

From: "Steve Spalding" (
Subject: Link, Article, Whatever.
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:14:04 -0400

Submitting an article that you may want to check out. It has been said before, but I don't think it can ever be said too many times. Thanks.

"The Myth of the 'Nice Guy' "

[Yep. WE'VE said it all before. The question is, will the LOSERS take it more seriously now that it's come from a GUY and not a Heartless Bitch? And more importantly, do we care?]


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