The "Nice Guys" archive

Comments - round 36
Comments - round 35
Comments - round 34
Comments - round 33
Comments - round 32
Comments - round 31
Comments - round 30
Comments - round 29
Comments - round 28
Comments - round 27
Comments - round 26
Comments - round 25
Comments - round 24
Comments - round 23
Comments - round 22
Comments - round 21
Comments - round 20
Comments - round 19
Comments - round 18
Comments - round 17
Comments - round 16
Comments - round 15
Comments - round 14
Comments - round 13
Comments - round 12
Comments - round 11
Comments - round 10
Comments - round 9
Comments - round 8
Comments - round 7
Comments - round 6
Comments - round 5
Comments - round 4
Comments - round 3
Comments - round 2
Comments - round 1.5
Comments - round 1
Nice Guys = BLEAH!
Nice Guys we can do without

From: Alexander Ignatiev ""
Subject: One of a handful of useful sites on the net.

Of course, the subject says it all. Until very recently (about eight months ago) I was one of those sad bastards that you refer to as Nice Guys.

Absolutely a result of insecurity. About that time, I decided that I was going to start living. I must report great progress, based solely on reading through the Nice Guys section of your site.

Already, I can detect the milksoppiness wafting away.

But I would like to thank you. If your caustic brilliance can rescue at least one of my sad, former brethren from his fate, you have done the whole world a service. I only wish I had discovered your site earlier, as it would easily have halted my slow decay.

I now finally understand what the Heartless Bitches that I was fortunate enough to date were trying to tell me.

Keep up the good work.

From: "Joe Wiard" ""
Subject: Why Nice guys Are Such LOSERS! Nice.
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:56:01 -0500

You have "Nice Guys" confused with Insecure guys. Way to research. I don't get girls, but I don't bitch and moan about it. It's my problem, not anyone else's. That's the attitude most nice guys take. A nice guy isn't gonna try to send anyone on a guilt trip. A nice guy is a giver. What the Hell were you thinking when you wrote that? Put some effort into this stuff.

[Another one misses the point.]

From: "Johnny Falcones" ""
Subject: I'm a pissed off male... but not in the way you expect
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:43:56 -0400

I just stumbled across your site. And I'm a pissed off male.

But I'm not pissed off at HBI. No, on the contrary, I'm pissed off at the other contingent of females, and males, that perpetuate the confusing doctrines of inter-gender relations to the point of total madness.

Ask any woman what they want, and 80% of them will say "a nice guy". But only you, at HBI, have the guts to elaborate on that, and articulate it in a way that makes sense to us men.

I noticed how you rail against "nice guys", but it's not actually their generosity or niceness that you rail against. Hell, in this wacky world of ours, we could all use more "niceness".

But you boil it down into *why* nice men can be such turn-offs. I take this as meaning that I can still be nice deep down inside, but that it's probably not a good idea to bring flowers to a coffee date or tell a girl I love her on the first date.

This type of education is in such short supply. Why do you think the male gender is so confused about its own identity? Because of the maddening contradictions being spoon-fed to us by otherwise well-meaning friends, sisters, and mothers. "Be nice". "Be honest". "Don't play games".

It's all such total bullshit. "Don't play games"? That's the one that makes me want to throw a testosterone-enraged fit, hurling chairs through windows like a spastic monkey in an orgy of rage. Hasn't romance always been a bit of a "game"? Does anyone remember their high-school history readings, where men and women played the "game" of courtship for centuries in the middle ages? Do you think that the human race has really changed that much in the last 100 years that we no longer enjoy mystery, power games, and the feeling of chasing or being chased?

[HBI thinks game-playing by either gender sucks and we don't condone it. It's for children.]

Isn't it actually doing men a disservice to give this lame-ass advice?

[We aren't giving that kind of advice. Tell it to the people who are still perpetuating that crap, like the "Rules" girls...]

Yes, yes, the truth is difficult to articulate. Love and romance are rarely black and white. But you women have a duty, an obligation, to

[A DUTY? An Obligation? By WHOSE edict? Women are not yours, or anyone else's peons.]

learn how to express it in words, in a way that us men can understand.

[And yet, when women DO express things in plain, unambiguous language, they get branded Bitches. Some men want their egos stroked. Some want the truth. Women can't be mind-readers. And it's not THEIR responsibility to make you understand.]

You need to tell us these things in a way doesn't lead us further down the path of destruction.

[You need to grow a spine and figure out things for yourself instead of demanding that women chew it up into some palatable pulp and feed it to you in a way that allows you to swallow it without effort.]

That is, of course, assuming that you want to help us at all. You could leave us to our own devices, hoping that we're smart enough to figure it out on our own. Hell, I'm 30 and I only just learned a few years ago.

[Self-awareness: 2/10 (I've got news for you, you aren't there yet) ]

But please, to all those women out there that continue to give guys watered-down, lazy thinking half-advice, learn from the women here at HBI and get some language skills. You'd be doing both genders a huge favor. [And what about the guys? What sage advice do you have for them?]

Johnny Falcones

Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:44:31 -0500
Subject: After much thought....(Nice Guys)


On my lunch break I happened to link over to your site and started reading your section on "Nice Guys". After what seems like a long session of deep thought, I decided I would write to you and explain that I have never heard anyone in my life describe the issues I am dealing with as closely and as whole-heartedly as you have. I am upset right now, but it isn't's me. I am a 23 year old virgin that has had many failed relationships. I have started to realize reasons why I may be the cause of the problem but I never could pinpoint it. I think I understand now because of you, and I will explain that.

The moment I notice a woman that peaks my interest in anyway, the first thing I think about is what can I do to impress her and "make" her like me. I am 6'2" 270", so I'm not the typical dating model, but I do try and stay active and I am eating right (finally). Anyway, I know I have always felt insecure, but I never knew what level of insecurity was deemed abnormal to social standards, if there is such a thing as abnormailty. If I ever do get the nerve to talk to a stranger, I find that I am constantly trying to come up with something exciting to say, but I have noticed that no matter how hard I try I have always fallen short of her expectations. I know now that something in each encounter I have with a woman of interest turns her off to ever being more than friends. I have twisted my mind trying to find the answer to my fault.

I'm still not 100% sure, but I believe it ties into my insecurity and the growing sense of routine. I have many friends of both sexes, and I couldn't ask for better friends. I do notice, though, that most of the women I am now friends with I thought about in "that" way at one time or another. I have even gotten jealous that a girl chose my best friend instead of me. I have always put women on the pedestal which you speak of, not directly to them, but in my head they are almost always better than me. I even am a little gullible when it comes to money, I have been taken for many things, and I don't really regret doing it even though I know that I was being manipulated in every way. The fact that I am a virgin has slowly grown into a misunderstanding of my own feelings and emotions, and it's slowly making me hate. I started out with a goal to have sex when I was married, when I hit college I had forgotten about that and wanted to get "it" over with. I never would have guessed how hard it was to not have sex when every inch of my body wanted to. The chances I had in college to have sex, slim as they were, are filed under the "who cares" section in my head, simply because the women I knew were wanting a thrill and we both made the mistake of hoping and not knowing what we both expected from each other. I have had a hard time since then talking to women about sex when it pertains to sex...with me. I am the guy that girls come to when they want to talk about the shitty relationship they are in, I am truly grateful knowing I am confided in, but I will never understand why ME of all people was chosen with that responsibility for so many of my female friends. I try my best though :)

I tell women all the time that I all want is for someone to love me as much as I love them. I get positive responses from that, which in turn makes me feel good that I am chosing a good basis. I think there is more to that though, a relationship requires giving, taking, caring, touching...I think I could go on all day long. I'm not sure what my point is in this statement so I'll end it.

I remember more than once, wanting a woman to take care of me as a mother would her child. I'm not sure if that is because I was adopted or some other reason. I DO know that most women that picked up on that, thought it was weird and therefore ran away without looking back. It hurts, a lot....knowing that the way I feel and think is somehow wrong or "unattractive" to most women. I wish sometimes that it wasn't me, and that it was society to blame. We know where that leads though...

I think I have a pretty level head and I am smart enough to know when a fumble was on my side or hers and unafraid to admit it. I haven't gone out with a girl since I was 20, I think that if I ever do go out with someone again I would use all the past mistakes as notes of what NOT to do this time. I think an issue I am currently having is that when I am interested in someone and I want to tell them about me, I feel I must tell them about my virginity and that I haven't had a girlfriend in 3 years, I usually never get past that part with them. I even tell them that my virginity was a choice, and I can see it in their eyes that I just went straight to Loserville. That REALLY hurts me, because I can't help that part of me, that IS who I am. I can always change my security level, but having sex isn't something I can just make happen. Why do people look down on other people because they haven't had sex. Not all my problems tie into my virginty, I did choose to be one until I fell in love, which to some is a mistake and uncool. Fuck them I say

To be honest though, your use of words and your thoughts made me realize just how un-learned we all have become as a people and as couples trying to love each other. There is no communication, there is no thought and work put into relationships as much anymore, at least in my generation.

People tend to act more on instinct than they do their heads, I do the same thing, sometimes it's a good thing, most of the times it's bad. You can always have too much heart, just like you can have too much brains.

You ladies really opened up my eyes to a lot of things, I wish I would have known you were out there sooner. It's not too late though. Thanks for listening to me.


From: "Spin Freely" ""
Subject: my rant
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:02:02 -0600

Cool Site girlz.

So far I even learned a few things ,it's amazing what a Man can learn if he just keeps his big mouth shut and actually listens for a change.

No I am not a nice(insecure) guy who lets women(bitches) walk all over him, but that also doesn't mean I'm a knuckle draggin beer drinkin fart producer.

O.k. then I would like to hear your opinion on the following...

Why?....If a woman wears a pair of men's boxers and maybe her boyfriends t- or dress shirt , She can pull off an incredibly sexy look?...But a man slides into a pair of her panties and maybe a cami he's a sick twisted puppy???

just wondering if you feel the same way every other woman I've asked Cheers Spin

From: Scott Jones ""
Subject: I needed to follow up
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:06:42 -0700

Dear HB:

Wow. Your Nice Guys section has really made me look at myself. Not a very appealing site actually, however I want to believe that there is always hope for the chronic Nice Guy and painful introspection may be the path that I need to take right now.

The truth that struck me deepest in reading your rants and raves? Nice Guys don't really like themselves all that much. Very simple. Very true. Very difficult to turn around (but not impossible).

I also appreciated your distinction between being "kind" and being "nice". I wonder if some "Nice" guys started out as just "kind" and caring guys but then went too far with it, trying to bank on that kindness early on in their emotionally maturing lives. Being recognized for being kind can be a very pleasantly heady hit of positive re-enforcement. It can make you feel like you are special and that you have made a difference to someone else. The feeling may be so good, in fact, that it can become almost like a kind of addiction. You need the "hit" more and more, and where better to secure a steady source of the good stuff but to dive headlong into a relationship where you believe that by continuously providing the "nice-kind" stuff you'll continuously get that yummy "hit" in return.

Of course, we all know that addiction, and addicts turn ugly with time.

Stuck in the pre-pubescent stage of emotional development, our "Nice Guy" ends up digging himself deeper and deeper into the self-deluding morass of his own emotional denial. He starts to believe that "if I can only give more to her, then maybe she will love me" or worse "if I take less for myself, then I can give more to her and then she'll love and respect me." It doesn't take very long for this to turn into resentment and rage within the "Nice Guy", a rage that too often festers away into impotent misogyny and the rampant "Nice Guys Finish Last" self delusion.

Addictions can be overcome. The key is recognizing that the addiction exists in the first place. And don't worry, I am only using "Addiction" as a convenient metaphor to make my point. I have never ascribed to the notion that calling something an addiction absolves you from have any responsibility for the actions that you inflict while in the throws of that addiction. Pain is pain. Damage is damage.

Well my eyes are open. Here's to finding the strength to not look away.

Thanks SJ in SF

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