The "Nice Guys" archive

Comments - round 36
Comments - round 35
Comments - round 34
Comments - round 33
Comments - round 32
Comments - round 31
Comments - round 30
Comments - round 29
Comments - round 28
Comments - round 27
Comments - round 26
Comments - round 25
Comments - round 24
Comments - round 23
Comments - round 22
Comments - round 21
Comments - round 20
Comments - round 19
Comments - round 18
Comments - round 17
Comments - round 16
Comments - round 15
Comments - round 14
Comments - round 13
Comments - round 12
Comments - round 11
Comments - round 10
Comments - round 9
Comments - round 8
Comments - round 7
Comments - round 6
Comments - round 5
Comments - round 4
Comments - round 3
Comments - round 2
Comments - round 1.5
Comments - round 1
Nice Guys = BLEAH!
Nice Guys we can do without

JadeSyren (our Ruthless, Heartless BitchBouncer), Responds to yet another Nice Guy...

Dear Ms. Jade Syren:

I like your website.

[Thanks, I'll pass that along to the webmistress.]

I find the vast majority of your analysis insightful, witty, and correct.

[The stroke and slap method of critique. He's no amateur.]

I do, however, take issue with your definition of "Nice Guy." You said, "My definition of a genuinely nice guy is one who will treat everyone as an equal, and who DOESN'T EXPECT to get anything because of his nice behavior."

[I'll try to explain this to you.]

First of all, it is illogical to "treat everyone as an equal" because everyone is NOT equal. Judgment is how we discriminate between various choices. If we never judged one potential friend/mate better than another, then we would foolishly waste our time with all sorts of unsavory characters just to avoid judging them or treating them unequally.

[This is very true. However, I did NOT say that anyone should treat everyone EQUALLY, which is what you're talking about here. If you believe that each person you meet is your equal, that he or she is no better or no worse than you are, you shouldn't have a problem. What role they fill in your life is entirely a different matter.]

This idea is implicitly accepted by you in your comment, "There are a lot of women like me, too, but we stay away from guys like you." This idea that "everyone is created equal" is a fiction contrived by western, classical liberal (Locke, Paine, Jefferson) thought, and is anathema to tradition and common sense (the irony of Paine's title aside). Our Master Kong (the literal translation of Kong Fu Zi or "Confucius" in the Latin) said it best in Book 16 of his Analects:

"Those who are born with the possession of knowledge are the highest class of men. Those who learn, and so readily get possession of

[Personally, I'd like to meet someone who is BORN with knowledge. Certainly would be a smarty.]

knowledge, are the next. Those who are dull and stupid, and yet compass the learning, are another class next to these. As to those who are dull and stupid and yet do not learn; -- they are the lowest of the people."

"The superior man has nine things which are subjects with him of thoughtful consideration. In regard to the use of his eyes, he is anxious to see clearly. In regard to the use of his ears, he is anxious to hear distinctly. In regard to his countenance, he is anxious that it should be benign. In regard to his demeanor, he is anxious that it should be respectful. In regard to his speech, he is anxious that it should be sincere. In regard to his doing of business, he is anxious that it should be reverently careful. In regard to what he doubts about, he is anxious to question others. When he is angry, he thinks of the difficulties his anger may involve him in. When he sees gain to be got, he thinks of righteousness."

[You can drag out any quotes you'd like, but I'd hoped that you'd use something that would illustrate your points. What you've used so far points to a form of elitism, which is something that I did not get in what you were originally saying. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.]

With regard to your second point, namely, "a genuinely nice guy is one who...DOESN'T EXPECT to get anything because of his nice behavior," I must again disagree. Altruism is all fine and dandy, but when you keep doing nice things and never expect to get anything in return, it can make you into more a chump than a nice guy. A painful example of what

[I can understand why you don't get this one. You provide us with a fine example of it later in this letter. What the above quote means is not that you should give and give and give and expect nothing. What it means is that when you do choose to give, that you expect nothing. There is no subtlety in this distinction. It's pretty plain. You are combining an unhealthy behavior pattern with a healthy end result. This is what's confusing you. REAL(tm) Nice Guys (the kind that never whine to us) GET this, and they practice it. They don't give anything that they don't want to give, and when they do it, it's just for the act of giving alone.]

this kind of continuous selflessness can get you may be found here: I would be interested to know your thoughts on this issue.

[I'm not that compelled to continue a conversation in that way. I'll discuss what is on our site, but I draw the line at discussing what's on his, especially since I'm not talking to HIM. If this were your site, it would be a different matter.]

You probably are curious as to how I would define a "Nice Guy." Well,

[No. I can see that you're one of our examples.]

I'm going to cheat a little and adapt my definition from NiceGuy's website ( It's a bit lengthy, but I'm a big fan of wholism (looking at the big picture).

[I'm SO glad that you defined that for me. I thought you mean ASSHOLISM, (looking at the world through your rectum [damn near killed him]).]

[Snip excerpt he included from Womensuck.]

So, to summarize, a 'Nice Guy' is a guy who:

thinks of and treats a woman as an equal partner


does nice things for people without expecting anything directly in return

[A nice guy does the right thing, without question, and without expecting anything for it, not even a "job well done." Nice guys know that there are no kudos for being a DECENT person.]

does not continue to do nice things for people who take advantage of him and don't reciprocate (That would make him a chump.)

[Does not think of doing "nice things" as a social bargaining chip.]

generally treats all people with respect and kindness


values truth and loyalty, avoids lying and betrayal


rejects greed as a motivating factor in his life

[??? Not sure why you specify greed.]

has a fair amount of self-respect and self-confidence

[Good amount, and he doesn't need others to validate that.]

has a good level of emotional maturity, i.e. manages his anxiety without reacting to it, never lets it consume his life-proactive in his approach to self-improvement

[A good level of emotional maturity, anyway. I'm sure that we react to anxiety, but the question is how, not to stop reacting.]

knows when to take responsibility for his own failings...and when to blame others (balance is the key-a problem is rarely all any one person's fault)

[A nice guy doesn't really worry about blame. Who has time for that, anyway? By the time you've figured out who's to blame, he'd have stepped in and fixed it already.]

will listen, communicate, and be a 'good friend' without expecting sex

[Love that you've got "good friend" in quotation marks.]

expects that once she trusts him, a good female friend will give him a chance at a romantic relationship without irrational fears of it "ruining the friendship"

[Absolutely wrong. Women should be more than just a dating pool to you.]

These are just my initial thoughts. I am open to your suggestions and opinion.

Be well,

[I feel like I crossed into "Demolition Man."]


Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003
From: Chris Edwards <>
Subject: Do you really need another compliment? Do I care?

The entire section on "nice-guys" put a big smile on my face and reinforced a lot of things that I've just recently come to terms with, only in different words. A lot of "nice-guys" would do well to read and think on this stuff. It's even possible to find your way in this world while retaining much of the essence of the "nice-guy", sans the emphasis on physical affection. I do not consider the last hour of my life wasted.

... and in the "bitter bottom of the barrel" looney bin:

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003
Subject: Male Flame form :

COMMENTS: Thank you for your website. It is further confirmation of the general inaneness of women and why they should not be allowed free time to develop websites and express their views. I want to quickly comment on the articles relating to misogyny on your website. The "nice guy" theory you are puporting is only men that can not get a date believe that women want guys who treat them badly. The idea is that "nice guys" are insecure and weak, and they blame women for their inability to garner respect. But the truth is that men who have a lot of success with women and have many girlfriends will tell you the same thing about women. It is because they treat the women like crap that they are successful. They have only accepted this and play the game that women require in order to get what they desire. In fact, the "nice guys" resent the women because they need to be treated with contempt, not because of a misplaced contempt that the men feel for themselves. Thank you again for your website and keep up the work. You are doing a service to misogynysts around the world.

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